Why Mixed-Age Learning Will Transform Your Early Years Setting
“Children are capable of so much - if we let them.”
What if babies and preschoolers could learn alongside each other every day? At Atelier, they do, and we're here to share with you just how transformative this approach can be in your nursery setting.
In today’s episode we take you through the benefits and practical realities of the mixed-age key family approach our nursery has become well known (and loved!) for. From peer scaffolding and social-emotional development to fluid, child-led environments and trust-based pedagogy, the Atelier leadership team share their experiences of creating a setting where all children, regardless of age, can learn and grow together.
This episode is absolutely brimming with practical insights and all our best tips on how to start implementing this approach, so if you're curious about how mixed-age learning could transform your setting (or even if you're a parent wondering how this actually works in practice) you'll definitely want to grab your notebook!
In this episode:
- What the mixed-age key family model really looks like in practice at Atelier
- Why peer learning and scaffolding flourishes across age groups
- The role of trust, risk, and autonomy in child development
- How staff and children adapt to a fully free-flow environment
- Tips for nursery leaders thinking about transitioning away from age-defined groupings
- Planning, communication, and ‘rhythm not routines’ at Atelier
- Insights into personalised CPD and staff development in a mixed-age setting
Find out more:
· Website and newsletter: ateliernursery.co.uk
· Instagram: @ateliernurseryltd
· Consultancy enquiries: Contact us via the website
Together, we’ll unlock the potential for incredible growth and learning.
Atelier Talks is a Decibelle Creative original podcast www.decibellecreative.com / @decibelle_creative
Keywords: Early Years education, child-led learning, Mixed-Age, key family groups, reflective practice, nursery leadership.
Transcript
>> Clare: Welcome to Atelier Talks, the Early Years
Speaker:Collective.
Speaker:This is the podcast brought to you by the Atelier, nursery
Speaker:team, exploring the art and science of early years education.
Speaker:We're here to share knowledge and insights from our unique
Speaker:research led approach. So if you're passionate about
Speaker:early years education, you're in the right place.
Speaker:Let's find out what's in store for you on today's
Speaker:episode.
Speaker:Hello and welcome back to Atelier Talks, the
Speaker:Elias Collective. Today we're going to be talking about one of my favourite
Speaker:subjects, mixed ages and what that looks like for us at
Speaker:Atelier. So I'm joined by some of our experts again
Speaker:today. The lovely Laura. Hello,
Speaker:Lauren.
Speaker:>> Lauren: Hi.
Speaker:>> Clare: And Beth.
Speaker:>> Beth: Hiya.
Speaker:>> Clare: and we're here to take you through what mixed ages look like at
Speaker:Atelier.
Speaker:So Atelier is well known for its mixed age
Speaker:locally, but for many people, they won't have heard of mixed
Speaker:ages. And, we know that for us within the Southwest,
Speaker:there isn't really any other settings that are working in the way that we
Speaker:are. And actually, when we do a bit of research, we find out that's probably quite
Speaker:a national case. So, Laura, talk us through.
Speaker:What does a mixed age key family approach
Speaker:look like?
Speaker:>> Laura: So when you walk into our nurseries, I always explain
Speaker:it whenever someone comes to visit, I say, we are like a big house.
Speaker:Lilian Katz use the phrase that children aren't born in litters, so
Speaker:why do we care for them in litters? And actually that stuck with me
Speaker:for so long because when I think about a
Speaker:traditional nursery or a nursery that I suppose you would
Speaker:see elsewhere, you'd have all of your babies in one room, all of your
Speaker:toddlers in another, and then your preschoolers in another. But
Speaker:actually, in every home across the world, you
Speaker:wouldn't, you wouldn't put your baby in one room and your, your toddler
Speaker:upstairs. You would, you would want them to play together. So why can't we
Speaker:represent that, but just on a much larger scale? And
Speaker:I think for me, that is what Atelier is. It's a
Speaker:huge space where children can come
Speaker:together regardless of the age, regardless of their ability
Speaker:and their, I suppose, you know, the number that they are. It's not
Speaker:about putting them in
Speaker:spaces because of, because of their age. It should be
Speaker:about allowing them to play together, to be together
Speaker:and to be in this big homely environment, I
Speaker:suppose. And what I love
Speaker:most about it is that for some of our children who don't have siblings, it's
Speaker:like they've got that sibling relationship. With
Speaker:other children in the setting and. But it's
Speaker:just the most magical thing to walk through the nursery
Speaker:and see our babies playing alongside our
Speaker:preschoolers, our toddlers, really determined to try
Speaker:and achieve something alongside some of their older peers. And
Speaker:I think a lot of people when they first walk in, think,
Speaker:hang on a minute, what if you've got a baby crawling
Speaker:past a 4 year old? How does that work? And
Speaker:it does take a little bit of adjusting, it does take some getting
Speaker:used to. But once you've worked in this way, I
Speaker:don't think you could ever go back to age based
Speaker:spaces.
Speaker:>> Clare: I think that's a really valid point, Laura, because actually
Speaker:some of our practitioners walk in, don't they, when they're first appointed and
Speaker:you can see their arms scanning the ring and they're
Speaker:thinking, how does this work? You know, we literally
Speaker:do have these really determined babies.
Speaker:They don't see themselves as babies. They don't want to be in a baby
Speaker:room, they don't want to be shut away. They're competent and
Speaker:capable and able learners. And then, you know,
Speaker:alongside them you'll have a toddler
Speaker:that's equally as determined to prob, even more so
Speaker:in that whole egocentric me, myself and I on a
Speaker:real autonomous agenda that they're following.
Speaker:And then you'll have some of those busy preschoolers
Speaker:really making their way forward in the education,
Speaker:that's available to them. so you kind of see
Speaker:those practitioners walk in and their eyes are everywhere and they're looking like, what
Speaker:on earth is going on? How is this going to work? So I guess
Speaker:what I want to know is, Beth,
Speaker:talk us through. What does that
Speaker:actually mean? How does that work on a
Speaker:practical basis? For somebody who's never seen mixed
Speaker:ages, it must sound absolutely, like
Speaker:chaotic. And how does it work that our
Speaker:babies are in with our toddlers and our toddlers are in with our
Speaker:preschoolers and, our preschoolers are already almost our
Speaker:apprentices because they're so able in their
Speaker:learning. How does that work?
Speaker:>> Beth: I think like you say, yeah, to the untrained eye
Speaker:or to somebody walking in and seeing it first
Speaker:off, absolutely,
Speaker:we understand. We are very Marmite. Some people
Speaker:walk in the door and can go, oh my goodness, I
Speaker:can totally see what's
Speaker:happening here. You've got your
Speaker:two year old that's trying to get his shoes on to get out into the garden and
Speaker:your 4 year old that is there, ah, really carefully
Speaker:and patiently supporting him to get his
Speaker:Velcro closed or to help him get his coat on or whatever it
Speaker:might be that they're working together within that
Speaker:situation to get to an outcome, to be able to get
Speaker:out to the garden together to go and continue that play.
Speaker:So I think a lot of it is around trust.
Speaker:Having trust for your children, having trust for your
Speaker:team, and knowing when you're not right there next
Speaker:to them, that somebody else is loving or
Speaker:caring for them or keeping an eye out for them. and
Speaker:yeah, real trust in your children. Actually, our
Speaker:children are capable of so much
Speaker:if we let them lead their
Speaker:learning or we let them to direct their learning
Speaker:and the learning opportunities or the interests that they have.
Speaker:So I think, yeah, it's about slowing the pace down,
Speaker:letting them loop, head into some of it. Yeah.
Speaker:>> Clare: Okay. I think that's a really interesting concept, isn't it? Because I was in the
Speaker:nurseries last week and, little Eve, and we call her Little
Speaker:Eve because we've got a little Eve, a big Eve and a midleave and a
Speaker:staff Eve. But actually Eve was on the potter's
Speaker:wheel and she's what, 13 months now?
Speaker:And she was more than capably
Speaker:working out that if she pressed the pedal, the
Speaker:wheel would go faster and faster and faster. So atelier, we
Speaker:have potter's wheels and the, the floor pedals aren't on the floor anymore. We put them
Speaker:onto a raised table next to the potter's wheel and she was just
Speaker:pushing and pushing and pushing to work out the speed and the
Speaker:resilience of it. And she actually engaged one of
Speaker:her older, key family members to come and then push
Speaker:the pedal for her so she could then manipulate her
Speaker:own clay. And actually the process and the
Speaker:concept of, what she was trying to achieve,
Speaker:to actually, to do the physics and the mass
Speaker:behind actually the pressure and the control of the pedal right the
Speaker:way through to actually engaging an older peer to support her learning
Speaker:and scaffold what she was doing to then actually being able
Speaker:to immerse herself in a task that for so
Speaker:many of our children, even in primary school,
Speaker:wouldn't be able to kind of, explore and
Speaker:access. But actually being less than 18
Speaker:months and successfully using a potter's wheel, I think is quite
Speaker:remarkable.
Speaker:So, Laura, from a parent's perspective. So Laura,
Speaker:you're a nursery manager within our settings, so you're always doing our
Speaker:show arounds with new and prospective parents.
Speaker:I can imagine a bit like those new staff members when they walk in the
Speaker:door and you kind of see the rabbit in the head, like, look, how does that
Speaker:feel for families when they're walking in the door for the first time to see those
Speaker:mixed ages.
Speaker:>> Laura: So I always preface any nursery visit with what
Speaker:you're about to see is very different from what you're probably used to and
Speaker:what you assume an early childhood education
Speaker:and care setting would look like. But actually
Speaker:the real wow factor and the real magic is when they
Speaker:actually see it happening in practise, because it's something you can't
Speaker:really describe until you see it happening. And I love
Speaker:it when there's a 4 year old SAT with the scissors and they're
Speaker:cutting something out in the studio and they've got a baby next to them
Speaker:who's also really intrigued in watching what's going on and starting
Speaker:to pick up the scissors, working out how they open and close.
Speaker:They might also then be crawling around on the floor and finding a pen
Speaker:that's been, left on the floor and then really examining it and working
Speaker:out how they can make the marks with it. And it's so beautiful
Speaker:to see how the
Speaker:peer scaffolding is working between all of those
Speaker:children consistently without actually us
Speaker:as educators enforcing it or kind of,
Speaker:making it happen. It's such a natural thing that happens. But
Speaker:actually it's so beautiful to witness. I think one of
Speaker:the challenges that I face with visits is a lot of
Speaker:parents being concerned about if I have got an eight month old
Speaker:baby and there's four year olds that are moving quite fast
Speaker:past them or they're building big towers, how, how is
Speaker:my baby safe in that environment? And I think actually that can
Speaker:be quite daunting. Yeah, but our four,
Speaker:year olds and our three year olds have such a deep level of
Speaker:respect and we hold really high expectations for
Speaker:their behaviour as well. And understanding that if you are
Speaker:going to build your tower and you have got a baby crawling past,
Speaker:how do you make it safe? And then we talk about risk assessing
Speaker:and our older children are building up their toolkit of skills to think
Speaker:about if a baby does crawl past, it needs to be maybe
Speaker:3 tall rather than 5 tall or it needs to be
Speaker:sturdier. So there's so many learning opportunities within that,
Speaker:within understanding.
Speaker:>> Clare: I think it's one of those things as well, isn't it, Laura? And you've had,
Speaker:when you've had children that have grown up in a mixed age
Speaker:family, it's always been the
Speaker:case. So actually you've got babies who are watching the toddlers,
Speaker:you've got toddlers who are watching the preschoolers, you've got the
Speaker:preschoolers who are watching the school leavers, because actually they'll have a
Speaker:sibling that's coming back in. So they've already learned
Speaker:that sense of responsibility, a sense of accountability.
Speaker:and I love what you were saying about holding that high expectation. You
Speaker:know, if we truly are viewing those babies as competent,
Speaker:capable learners, then actually we have to
Speaker:allow them to be able to be accessing those
Speaker:spaces. We have to be allowing them to make mistakes, we have to
Speaker:be allowing them to take risk. But actually all of that
Speaker:risk is always measured, isn't it? And I think it's really tricky
Speaker:sometimes when you have those nursery visits and you've got that tiny,
Speaker:tiny, tiny newborn baby, sometimes
Speaker:not even born baby. And actually
Speaker:the concept for a parent of what that baby
Speaker:needs in that particular phase is
Speaker:so very different to what they will know as a parent, particularly
Speaker:if it's a first time parent, their understanding of what their child
Speaker:will be like in six months time or 12 months time. And I think
Speaker:I always remember a really lovely conversation I had with a parent, Charlotte,
Speaker:and on her very first nursery visit. And she came and this
Speaker:tiny baby was just in this papoose and she just
Speaker:cried on her nursery visit. And I said it's okay, just sit down, just have
Speaker:a moment. And she was just so overwhelmed. And actually
Speaker:it turned out her baby was only two weeks old. And I was like,
Speaker:I was still in my pyjamas. Why are you,
Speaker:why are you thinking about looking for a nursery now? And actually
Speaker:third time in, when we had her third child, and she
Speaker:was just like, oh, you know, I now talk to my friends who've got
Speaker:children in age defined nurseries. M
Speaker:she said, and I'm so glad we made this choice. She said it was
Speaker:so difficult to picture when I had this tiny,
Speaker:tiny baby, what my one year old was going to be like,
Speaker:what my toddler was going to be like. But actually looking back on it, she'd
Speaker:missed the need for those transitions in terms of age
Speaker:defined space it her children would be able to
Speaker:share together. So we had all three of her children at one point in
Speaker:our nursery care. and I think that real relationship
Speaker:about trust, as you were saying, Beth, is really, really important.
Speaker:So in terms of those other benefits
Speaker:then. So I know Laura, I hear there's some of those challenges. I hear that from a
Speaker:parent's perspective and I think we're going to go into a little bit more depth about that in
Speaker:a minute. But what I really want to talk about is what are those benefits? Because
Speaker:it's, you know, we Know when we have those visitors, we know
Speaker:when we have those first time parents, we know when we have those new staff that have come
Speaker:from a conventional nursery. They are a bit like,
Speaker:what on earth, is going on here? How does this work? How do
Speaker:you know where everybody is? What if you've lost somebody? You know,
Speaker:and actually when they say loss, they're only really meaning they're not in.
Speaker:So what does that actually really look like? So we know, we've
Speaker:worked it, we've lived in it. but Lauren, you came to us as
Speaker:a complete kind of, you know, newbie.
Speaker:Newbie. What did that feel like when you walked in the
Speaker:door?
Speaker:>> Lauren: yeah, I think I was,
Speaker:I was in awe of the practitioners. Like for me it's,
Speaker:you have to have skilled educators to.
Speaker:You can't have educators that say, oh, don't do
Speaker:babies. No, your skill
Speaker:set as an educator in a mixed age setting
Speaker:is vast because you've got to understand child
Speaker:development from zero right the way up to
Speaker:four and beyond. And you need
Speaker:to know how to interact with those
Speaker:different age ranges and have all of those ideas up your
Speaker:sleeve. So if you're playing in the piazza,
Speaker:constructing, maybe a little toddler comes
Speaker:along to join in the play automatically. They're
Speaker:coming with the truck and they want the loose parts to put
Speaker:into the truck to fill and empty and transport. So
Speaker:whenever you're playing, your interactions and your questioning
Speaker:need to be differentiated in so many different ways. I think that's,
Speaker:that's where I felt like my skill set really, I needed to
Speaker:really go back and really scale right the way back
Speaker:because I'd predominantly work with 4 year olds. So that was
Speaker:where my mindset was. so I think, yes,
Speaker:skilled practitioners.
Speaker:>> Clare: And I think it's a really valid point, isn't it? Because I think we've got so many
Speaker:practitioners coming through where perhaps the training hasn't
Speaker:been as adequate as we would want it to be.
Speaker:So actually that real depth of child development isn't always
Speaker:as present and as strong as we would want it to be or expect it
Speaker:to be. And so actually, you know, when you're working in
Speaker:that way, you have to possess so much
Speaker:knowledge of how children are learning, how they're growing. But
Speaker:also, I love what you talk about that differentiation. You know, how are you
Speaker:meeting the needs of a baby that might be sat on your
Speaker:lap at the same time as a four year old who wants to build
Speaker:tall and wide and fast, or you know, actually somebody
Speaker:who's, you know, learning to Hammer on the woodwork bench. And actually
Speaker:how do they know when to hammer and when not to hammer? When the saws
Speaker:can come out, when the saws can't come out. Dependent on whether the babies
Speaker:are actually learning to cruise along the edge of the woodwork bench. And what does that
Speaker:look like for those children?
Speaker:>> Laura: I think it's such a privileged position to be in because every day
Speaker:you're watching every stage of child development, you've got your
Speaker:pre walkers who are, who are cruising and you know, starting to
Speaker:tend to take their first steps. And then you have got your
Speaker:2 year olds who are really starting to come into that. No, actually
Speaker:I can control this. I've got a bit of.
Speaker:And then you have got your 3 year old who are starting to be a bit like, right,
Speaker:okay, it's going to be my turn to lead the nursery soon because the preschoolers
Speaker:are going. And then your preschoolers who are really just
Speaker:so ready for the next journey. But also
Speaker:so, they're such leaders of our younger children. They really take
Speaker:on that responsible role and they love carrying out little
Speaker:tasks, they love doing things to help. I know there was a really
Speaker:lovely moment the other week when I sat down and
Speaker:one of our toddlers was really struggling to do the zip back up on their bag and they
Speaker:were really determined. They were like, I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. And one of
Speaker:them, one of the four year olds just really quietly came up to them was like,
Speaker:can I help you? Do you need some help? And they didn't do it for them
Speaker:but they held the hand and they did it together. And those
Speaker:moments that are just, you can't create them, you can't force
Speaker:it. But that respect they have for each other and that trust and
Speaker:that, that love they have is just, just amazing to
Speaker:watch. And that's why I love that mixed age because you
Speaker:see the breadth of child development and the breadth of
Speaker:ages all day, every day and it's just joy.
Speaker:>> Clare: I think there's something else in there as well about each of these children being
Speaker:able to move through their phase of development naturally.
Speaker:So actually you haven't got a child who perhaps is
Speaker:taking longer to reach their expected milestones, being
Speaker:forced into a different space or being forced into a different age range
Speaker:category. But you've also got those retreaters. You know,
Speaker:I love it when I walk past into the baby nests. and
Speaker:although we have a baby nest, they're open and accessible to all of the children
Speaker:at any time. So you know, you might
Speaker:just find a three year old just rocking backwards and
Speaker:forwards, just taking a moment just to gather that
Speaker:sense of self, and actually just being in
Speaker:tune with where they need to be and at the right
Speaker:pace for them. I love what you were saying Beth, about that slowing
Speaker:down of pedagogy and that acceptance of each
Speaker:other. I think from an inclusive perspective
Speaker:is by far the most beneficial way for me to see working. Because
Speaker:actually all of those children are accepted as
Speaker:the unique individual that they are, just as
Speaker:they would be in any other family. And so actually by having that
Speaker:mixed age approach, you're able to support and
Speaker:scaffold each of those children from their starting point. Rather
Speaker:than saying, this is the two year old room, this is what happens, this is what
Speaker:we're focusing on, this is our topic or this is our overarching aim
Speaker:of what we're going to achieve. I think it feels really important.
Speaker:>> Laura: What made you want to have a mixed age nursery? Because
Speaker:I think you're kind of the leader, you're the
Speaker:director of everything and you kind of, this was your vision.
Speaker:What made you want to work in this way compared to the way
Speaker:that everybody else.
Speaker:>> Clare: I can't steal all the credit for it. So I was very,
Speaker:very fortunate. I have had some amazing bosses in my
Speaker:time, so Thursa and Sally and
Speaker:Jo, had all kind of led the way before me and I
Speaker:kind of, I stand on their shoulders without a doubt. So I think it's only fair
Speaker:to give them credit within that and I'm really grateful that they're still in my
Speaker:lives in some way, shape or form now. But
Speaker:actually I grew up in a mixed age family setting,
Speaker:so it was all I'd ever known. I had my own key family of mixed age
Speaker:children. I had my George and a Lizzie,
Speaker:I had Seamus, I had Fiona, I had all of those siblings,
Speaker:Jack and Chloe, and actually I saw them grow up, I saw the
Speaker:benefits of it, I saw the relationships, the longevity of
Speaker:the attachment that was in place. you know, the fact that
Speaker:nobody wanted to sit next to Lizzie because actually she'd always steal the carrots
Speaker:off their plate because she'd prefer them. but actually the way
Speaker:that they grew together and I think that was for me what
Speaker:was so, so important. When we look the benefits of
Speaker:education, we look at the benefits of communication, we look at the
Speaker:benefits towards the personal, social, emotional development.
Speaker:We look at the relationships that then empower,
Speaker:give a sense of, belonging, give a sense of
Speaker:autonomy, they're all, for me, the characteristics of what
Speaker:make effective learning. by holding a key family and
Speaker:by holding those mixed ages, you're able to really work
Speaker:in a celebratory way of each of the individual children.
Speaker:>> Laura: I love that.
Speaker:>> Clare: So, Bas, we've kind of talked a lot about the benefits, so
Speaker:what about the practicality? So part of your job is making this all work
Speaker:from a staff perspective, from a recruitment
Speaker:perspective, but also kind of overseeing that quality
Speaker:within your role. So talk us through some of the
Speaker:practicalities in practise.
Speaker:>> Beth: so I think one of the biggest practicalities is the
Speaker:movement and the flow of the children. So it's that
Speaker:constantly being aware of
Speaker:where your children are. So have you got something going
Speaker:on in your studio space that's drawing
Speaker:lots and lots of children in? Because there's something, a big, exciting
Speaker:project going on for a few hours of that morning or
Speaker:extending into the afternoon. So I think it's around,
Speaker:yeah. Being aware of where your children are at, deploying in
Speaker:the right places also then really thinking about
Speaker:what's going on in other rooms. If actually you
Speaker:need to tweak what you've got going on. Are you meeting the needs
Speaker:of the children that are accessing your space?
Speaker:>> Clare: Do you know what, Beth, I'm going to stop you there because I'm just really aware that
Speaker:we're talking about something that's so everyday to us,
Speaker:but our listeners aren't even going to be aware of our environment. So you're talking about the
Speaker:studio. So talk us through it. Give us that kind of a bit of a virtual
Speaker:tour of the nursery and where these children are going to be moving
Speaker:through in their mixed ages.
Speaker:>> Beth: So I think, starting off, you enter into the
Speaker:nurseries and you've got your
Speaker:snug explorer space that's really designed
Speaker:for low level, really sensory
Speaker:play kind of. You've got the sand, you've got the water,
Speaker:you've got, All of our spaces have got a snuggle
Speaker:sofa area so that actually some of our children
Speaker:attend more hours than we work. So just
Speaker:having that time out space as well is really important.
Speaker:And again, back to that elastic. So they're going to start
Speaker:venturing through the nursery. So then you move in, through to the
Speaker:discovery room and in there you've got
Speaker:your clay wheels, you've got your
Speaker:botanicals at the moment, you've got your
Speaker:cooking and role play type areas and then
Speaker:you move through again and you've got your piazza spaces with all
Speaker:your construction, your big tall building blocks,
Speaker:and your designing and then yeah, you move through again
Speaker:and you've got your studio space. So it's all around large
Speaker:scale mark making paint projects. at the
Speaker:moment I think we've got a pendulum painting going
Speaker:on so actually all of the children can come and access
Speaker:and have a go at that experience really.
Speaker:>> Clare: And just for the benefit of the listeners that all of the children can move
Speaker:throughout all of the spaces at ah, any point in
Speaker:time.
Speaker:>> Beth: Absolutely. So yeah, our children can move
Speaker:through every single space. Our garden is open,
:00 in the morning until 6:00 at night. all of
:our spaces, the doors are open, there's no gates,
:there's no stopping anybody.
:and yeah, you tend to find our youngest of children will start
:in the baby space, will start in that nest space,
:building up those relationships, building up that trust.
:and then you do start to see them just poking their head around the
:corner. I'm going to go and see what's going on next door or I'm going to
:go. And it's having the skill set of the staff as well actually.
:Every single child is able to access a different
:member of the team with different skills, with different
:knowledge, with different understanding that will
:welcome them and accept them into any
:learning opportunity that they want to get involved
:with really.
:>> Clare: Lauren was saying about when she first joined the team and she had that
:predominant experience of 4 year olds. I remember there was a really lovely
:conversation I had with Mary, who's one of our artists and she'd
:said that Charlie had decided that he wanted to do the sewing
:and he'd sat and he'd watched and watched and watched and waited
:and waited and waited for his turn on the sewing machine.
:And when he got to the front of the line and then, you know, it was
:like sort of a little small group of three or four children and he'd waited for
:his turn and when he got to the front,
:Mary had kind of scooped him up and gone to take him back to the
:nest because she'd assumed he'd waited and he'd
:watched a long time and he wanted to be engaged with something else
:and he got really cross with her and she actually had
:to stop and pause and reflect on what it was he was trying
:to tell her. And actually what it was was I've waited my turn
:actually let me on that sewing machine. And this
:was a non verbal baby who wanted to be
:able to watch the material move underneath the needle, who wanted to be able
:to put the pedal down. and for those adults to actually
:trust that process of that learning is really, really
:important. So there's obviously lots of practicalities. You
:talk about staff deployment, you talk about the rater, you, talk a
:lot about the environment. Laura, what about your perspective,
:as a manager who's putting it into action every day. Are there any kind
:of things that you think about practically
:that need to be shared?
:>> Laura: I think one of the trickiest things is
:actually that staff deployment and thinking about actually if there's something
:really exciting happening in the studio, for example, and you've got the pendulum
:painting, you've got the clay wheel and you've got lots of children
:who are starting to drift towards that because it's really enticing to them.
:What else is in the nursery that's actually going to draw some other
:children away? So you're not just having all of your children in one
:space. But that's why we talk about having provocations,
:and projects in spaces. So actually every single room
:has got something of interest to a certain set of children. So
:everything is based on that child led interest
:based approach where actually you've got your children who are pendulum
:painting but actually you've also got the future
:architects and engineers who are in the discovery room
:who are sketching out their next design for I don't know what
:tower they're going to build or the rocket ship they're making. And then in the
:garden you've got the new sand crane that's being
:activated and the water wall that they're using. So
:whilst it can sometimes feel a little bit like, hang on a minute, let's move
:some stuff through. Well, let's think about the flow of the children.
:Actually there's always something in every space that's
:designed for certain children. sometimes the studio will have things
:on a lower level for the babies. So actually there's more babies in that space.
:And the older children are then playing in the
:explorer space on the slide or using the indoor sandpit.
:so I think it's just this really intricate dance of
:staff and also us, ah, me knowing my
:staff team, but also the educators knowing the children and knowing
:actually what activity is going to spark the most interest
:and then deploying around that.
:>> Clare: I love that sort of an intricate dance.
:>> Laura: Yeah.
:>> Clare: So talk me through the rhythm then within that mixed stages at
:nursery, at atelier, we always talk rhythm rather than a
:routine. So how is that rhythm led
:by those mixed ages and that intricate dance?
:>> Laura: So we always talk about like you say, the rhythm, rather Than it being sort of
:right. This happens at this time, this happens at that time. It's all about
:moving with the children, listening to the children. And we
:always say that we don't want to take the children out of play
:because we know how vital play is for that brain development, for those
:neurons to be building. And actually the minute you say, I'm going to do your
:nappy now and you're taking that baby away from potentially a
:really life changing moment of learning is
:actually really detrimental. So we talk about a rhythm.
:So actually one of my practitioners might know they've got to
:do three nappies before 11 o' clock say when they go on their
:lunch break. But actually they're really listening and watching those
:children and thinking, I'm going to give them five more minutes and I'll go back and
:see whether they're still engaged or whether they're moving away.
:and then within that you've got all of the staff around each other who
:are just really subtly aware of
:each other. And it really is that
:innate trust between each other as a team. Really, really strong
:communication, but also just
:knowing the children and knowing when
:it's time to kind of pull them away.
:>> Lauren: Yeah, because they're natural waves,
:aren't they? Naturally the children will start to
:either take it further or choose to do something else or
:they naturally get hungry. So you know that when
:the time is to, to kind of get the cafe
:out. So yeah, it's like you say, it's following their
:natural rhythm.
:>> Laura: Yeah, the rhythm of the day. And I think the most important thing
:as well is obviously the, the key people know the needs of their
:children. They can read those cues. They know when one of them might be getting
:tired. So then they're starting to think about how they can get that one
:to sleep and making sure that one still. Yeah, it's just,
:it's so hard to describe, isn't it, when you live it and breathe every
:day. But it is a really intricate balance
:of needs.
:>> Lauren: Yeah, you have to let go, trust. And that's the thing.
:It's like you have to let go. But there's still
:it's freedom of guidance, isn't it? You do have to like kind
:of surrender to the children.
:But lunch is at 12. Like actually you have to have to have
:some set routine. But you have to, yeah. Have that trust
:in them and then go from there.
:>> Beth: I think over the years as well, I think we've all
:really worked hard on the fact that
:this doesn't. This doesn't all happen
:seamlessly without a lot of work.
:>> Laura: Yeah, that's the thing.
:>> Beth: We know that actually for us the planning process
:has to be protected. You have to have your team
:off the floor at certain points through the week to
:make sure that they're able to talk about their children, they're able to talk
:about the 2 year olds that actually may be pushing
:boundaries a little bit at the moment and how we're going to
:enrich the learning environment for them and what their needs are right now.
:And I think you cannot communicate enough.
:And so I think, yeah, we've definitely learned
:over years and years and years that,
:yeah, having time, having time to talk, to
:share, to reflect, to think about what's
:going to come next and hearing the
:children's voices within that as well. I think, yeah,
:it's huge. It's a huge part of making it work.
:>> Clare: I think it's one of these things, when you ask like, how did it come about and why
:did we decide to do it? Actually we had the really lovely Wendy Scott
:come and spend some time with us a couple of years ago and she just said
:there's some really intelligent thinking that goes on
:and I think it's. But it's like you say, it's behind the scenes. you
:know, for, from a practise provision, you
:know, as a nursery owner you can see by far it's the most
:complex way of working, it's the most expensive way of working
:but actually when you look at all of the
:benefits it brings, for me it by far
:outweighs anything else that we could ever try to do.
:So in terms of some of these practicalities, we've looked at it from an
:operations perspective, we've looked at it from a day to day perspective. We know
:there's a vast amount of benefit there. Laura, you
:touched on some of the parents views but Beth, I'm interested in one of the things
:you've been doing in the bath nursery over recent weeks for our two
:year old. So we've been really kind of championing some of
:those two year olds. So we've got the amazing Daisy, who works
:with us and she's got a cohort of some very
:strong, very determined,
:two year olds. So talk me through some of that advocacy for some of those
:children within a mixed age. Key family.
:>> Beth: Yeah, I think it's around
:recognising the
:potential and the ability of every
:child, and knowing like when you were talking about the
:pottery and the clay wheel that actually
:no matter what age you are if you want to experience
:that. I think a nursery or
:kind of a childcare provider should be able
:to give that experience and not to be able
:to go, no, that's for a two year old or a three year
:old. I think we also look really closely at
:those dynamics and what those children need
:and I think the mixed age works really well
:for are our
:educators as well. Because I personally
:can't think of anything worse than being in a
:space with only 2 year olds or in a space with
:only 4 year olds. Actually having that mixed
:age allows you to have different
:experiences through the day to break
:up some of those challenges. Really.
:>> Clare: I think it stops that routine as well. You know
:that awful time when you have to be in the nappy room and so you've
:got all, all nappies all day regardless of whether
:they're your children or not your children. but actually really
:almost supports the staff to construct the learning
:alongside the children, but also alongside each other.
:so actually they're really challenging their thinking about what to do. So when
:you look at Daisy's key family at the moment,
:because they are the nature of when her children
:started and then increased their sessions, she has a
:number of children that are doing four days a week who are all of a very similar
:age. So actually the rivalry that's coming naturally
:between them, in terms of their need of attachment, their need for
:her has been really interesting to observe and actually how
:by supporting them, by having a toddler
:advocate who works across all of those spaces and
:is going into the discovery room and going, should we take the legs off of that
:table so those children can actually immerse themselves fully into
:it or going into the studio and going, that's brilliant. You've got that
:pendulum painting that's higher, that's, you know, hanging from a high
:height. But actually could we hang the mops from the tree in the garden?
:Say that actually those toddlers can get that real big ability to
:push and deconstruct at the same time. That something
:is much more accurate and needing some of that more
:perseverance from some of those three and four year olds.
:>> Beth: Yeah, I think even just looking at
:lunchtimes, and having a mixed age family
:around a lunch table is something quite
:special. And actually the
:four year olds are supporting our youngest babies and
:pouring a glass of water for them or helping them to serve their
:lunch. Our two year olds want to be the next
:big one and take on tasks or take
:something back to the kitchen and say thank you to the chef or
:whatever it might be. And I think, yeah, lunchtimes are a
:really, really special part of the day.
:>> Clare: And I think it is. It's a beautiful time, isn't it? Because you've got.
:It is that fine line between chaos and cosmos. So you might have a
:key person who sat with eight children. they're mixed
:ages, they've got their trolley, they've got a beautiful lunch that's been prepared
:for them. The children know Pauline's cooking is amazing, so they're
:wanting to sit down and eat as quickly as they can. But you'll have a four
:year old who'll be counting the number of children on their table
:and selecting the right number of plates. You'll have a two
:year old that's determined they're going to be handing out the forks, but
:might be, you know, going around the table with a, you know, a bit of
:a nudge and a jar. at the same time, you know, you'll have
:somebody who's negotiating the kind of chair they're sitting on because
:actually the babies might need to change over from a high
:chair to a me do chair because somebody else needs that chair. and
:the negotiation and, the compromise that takes
:place, I think is really considerable. The
:expectations of our children are so high and of the staff that
:are working with them.
:So in terms of that mixed ages, Lauren, one of your roles is
:drawing in the staff development process. So is there some specific training
:that you're running to support the staff in terms of that
:child development and that awareness of mixed ages?
:>> Lauren: Yeah. So, we've thought really reflectively about our
:CPD programme. We've kind of introduced some
:kind of new strategies to mix it up a bit, really.
:And just remember that it's not one size fits all
:and all of our educators come from a different
:starting level, different experience. So one
:of the things that we've introduced over the past couple of years, are
:CPD groups. So those groups, we kind
:of have a discussion with each educator and say, what,
:what do you fancy learning about next? What are your, areas of interest
:or areas of specialism? And then those CPD
:groups have targeted, tasks that they
:complete monthly and then they also come back after
:their monthly tasks. They might have, for example, a
:podcast to listen to or, an online
:training to complete. And then the following month
:they come back together with their CPD groups and,
:share what they've understood, maybe ask
:questions and then work out how they're going to apply that.
:So the personalised CPD approach I think really
:helps because then if there are gaps in knowledge,
:you can fill them quite easily. But it's also
:really meaningful to the staff. We're not just all learning about
:the same thing. but we've also thought about having
:kind of like, they're almost inspirational speakers, aren't they? So
:we also have weekend CPD opportunities where the
:whole staff team comes together. Ben Kingston Hughes is
:my favourite, but so we're really like. And
:he really helped me my understanding of brain development.
:But other people that came to the same whole
:CPD day got something a little bit different from it as well, didn't they? I
:know, like, I really like zoned into what I was really interested
:in and wanted to find out more about. But, yeah, the inspirational speaker
:kind of helps as well.
:>> Clare: And I think it's that bit though, isn't it, about knowing that all of
:the staff can be tapped into their starting point as well.
:So in terms of those children, and I thought what was really important
:as part of that induction process, you know, you arranged for them to have that emotion
:coaching. Everybody had to participate on a baby and toddler
:quality night, so it didn't matter if you came. You know,
:I'm probably a bit older than you guys, but that old school approach
:whereby you felt like, you know, when I was an early
:years practitioner, you had a higher level role if you were involved
:in the three and four year olds and you got to do planning because actually at that
:time children under the age of three weren't even inspected, you
:know, and so we didn't even have a birth to three matters, let alone
:a birth to five matters. And so I think it's really important
:to think and value that actually our children grow up. So
:that understanding of, like you say, brain development, of
:interactions, of connections, of the importance of
:relationships, really, really does come into play when we've got those
:mixed ages.
:So Laura, you touched on a little bit about some of the challenges from
:parents when their kind of perceptions of the nursery
:when it comes in into play. Beth, I guess I'm interested on building
:on that a little bit and thinking about, you know, for some of our
:nursery managers that might be listening in today, you know, what are
:the other challenges that they can proactively kind
:of seek to take on if they were looking to change their practise
:and looking to integrate some of those ages?
:>> Beth: I think start by looking
:at, the flow of your nursery. So I think we,
:we know at atelier if we do
:things we don't do them by halves. So if we say that we're
:free flow, we are free flow from when they start
:at four months old, possibly right the way
:through until four years old. But I think if
:you can start somewhere, if that's mixing your two year
:old, your toddlers and your preschoolers together, if you can
:start something, then
:you're going to see the benefit of that. You're going to see those children
:working together, rationalising together,
:problem solving together and that learning is so
:much more meaningful. and also I think
:flipping it on your head really, and going. We
:always think about getting our preschoolers
:school ready and we always start with our three and four
:year olds. But actually if you can start and you can think
:about what are the first experiences those
:children get when they walk in the door or get carried in the
:door? yeah, think about your babies first because we
:know if we get it right for our babies, we
:get it right the whole way through.
:>> Clare: I'd agree. It's quite scary times as well, isn't it, where we've got that
:big influx of additional funding coming in or
:additional hours. It's not actually additional funding but additional hours being
:made available to families for our very youngest of children and actually,
:you know, the expansion grants that are coming out through from the local authorities.
:But actually there's very little talk about quality and what does that look like
:for our babies and our youngest of children? Gosh,
:lots to think about. So I guess in terms of then,
:our key ideas that we're taking away from today's
:episode of mixed ages is that benefit of peer
:scaffolding, the sharing of learning and knowledge
:and skill, the development of
:autonomy, the being brave with it
:actually, you know, really thinking outside of
:what has always been a normal provision and a normal process. Practise.
:But Lauren, if you could summarise for our listeners
:today, one thing for them to take away
:in their consideration of mixed stages and the value. What would it
:be from you?
:>> Lauren: I, think it's just, I think what you were talking about,
:looking at children's stages of development,
:I think it's almost like in my head I just think about
:like blanking out the numbers and
:just looking at children in terms of
:what's next for them.
:>> Beth: Yeah.
:>> Lauren: And I think if you can do that,
:then you're almost, you're embracing that mixed age
:approach because anything is possible for that child. They're not limited
:by, I don't know, the average 24 month ban.
:like. Yeah, like just.
:>> Laura: Yeah.
:>> Lauren: And Then just like limit the possibilities, just
:continue to like explore with the child.
:>> Clare: Laura, your top tip for managers looking to put it into practise?
:>> Laura: I think just believe in your children, respect your children, Just
:sit in, sit with the babies for a little while and just watch them
:and watch how capable they are and actually
:see how I guess brave they
:are and how much they want to learn and how they want to
:be curious and independent and then just think about how that would
:look with older children alongside facilitating that. I just
:think you have to trust your children, respect them
:and see them as really capable learners. And once you've got
:that mindset and you change your whole view about ages
:and stages and what children should be doing, when
:you think about what they could do rather than should do, it's a
:whole different story and it's a whole different way of caring and
:educating children.
:>> Clare: And Beth, finally from you with an operational perspective,
:what would you put out there as a top tip?
:>> Beth: Oh, I think operational perspective,
:you can't beat communication. Whether
:that's 10 minutes at the end of the day, whether
:it's as much time as you can fit in
:really. so I think, yeah, if you can
:prioritise giving your team
:time, it will go a long way.
:>> Clare: So thank you for listening with us today. We hope you've enjoyed
:a little insight into Atelier and our mixed age key family. If
:you'd like to learn more about Lilian Katz's beautiful way of working, please do
:get in your in touch. We'd love you to come and see it and practise for yourself.
:Thank you for joining us for Atelier Talks. If you
:enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, share and
:leave us a review. It really helps us to reach more educators,
:parents and early years professionals just like you
:for more insights into our unique research led approach
:or to find out more about our services at both the nursery
:or the consultancy and how we can help you in your early years
:practise, visit our website or follow us on social media.
:All the details you need to find us are in the show
:notes. In the
:meantime, it's goodbye from us. Thank you for joining us.
:We look forward to seeing you next time for another episode of
:Atelier Talks.
:Thanks for listening.
