Episode 12

full
Published on:

2nd Oct 2025

Be the Leader You’d Want To Be Led By: Award Winning Early Years Leadership

“We want our team to have their voices heard, but we also need to have that strategic direction that we’re moving in.”

– Clare Crowther, Atelier Nursery Director

In this episode we’re unpacking the kind of leadership that underpins everything we do at Atelier, both in our nurseries and through our consultancy. We’re not about traditional hierarchy, job titles or top-down management - our approach is about creating a culture where everyone leads with clarity, empathy, and purpose.

We explore the realities of what it means to be an emotionally intelligent, collaborative leader in Early Years, and how in your own Early Years setting you can build a team culture that holds challenge and kindness, strategy and vision, structure and flexibility. 

In this episode, we share:

  • Why we lead with kindness, collaboration and curiosity (not control)
  • What it means to build a “heterarchy” over a hierarchy in nursery leadership
  • How we coach our team using reflective practice 
  • Real leadership development stories from inside Atelier
  • Why vision setting and relationship building must go hand-in-hand
  • How we support our team through supervisions, appraisals and “walk and talk” feedback
  • Strategies for growing new leaders from within your team
  • The role of distributive leadership and collective accountability in our day-to-day practice

Standing on the shoulders of giants

The magic of Atelier draws on foundational thinking from a range of influential Early Years theorists and educators. If you’d like to find out more about the voices that shape our deeply relational, child-centred practice here at Atelier, those mentioned in today’s episode are as follows:

  • Peter Elfer – for the Key Person approach and emotionally attuned leadership
  • Elinor Goldschmied – for her emphasis on sensitive care, intimacy and connection
  • Jools Page – for the concept of Professional Love and how it extends to staff relationships
  • Reggio Children – for influencing our approach to coaching, vision setting and collaborative dialogue
  • Lencioni & Covey – for leadership thinking that inspires clarity, trust and accountability
  • Sonia Jackson – for her work on professionalising Early Years leadership
  • John Bowlby – for his attachment theory, which informs how we lead through relational trust

Find out more:

Website and newsletter: ateliernursery.co.uk

Instagram: @ateliernurseryltd

Consultancy enquiries: Contact us via our website

Together, we’ll unlock the potential for incredible growth and learning.


Atelier Talks is a Decibelle Creative original podcast

Produced by Decibelle Creative – decibellecreative.com / @decibelle_creative




Keywords: early years leadership, nursery manager support, coaching early years teams, heterarchy vs hierarchy, early years supervision, nursery appraisals, reflective leadership, key person approach, team culture in nursery, vision-led leadership, EYFS consultancy, emotionally intelligent leadership, leading from the floor, growing nursery leaders



Transcript
Clare:

Welcome to Atelier Talks, the Early Years

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Collective.

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This is the podcast brought to you.

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By the Atelier Nursery team, exploring the art and

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science of early years education. We're here to

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share knowledge and insights from our unique

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research led approach. So if you're passionate

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about early years education, you're in the right

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place. Let's find out what's in store for you on

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today's episode.

Clare:

Hello and welcome to Atelier Talks. Today I'm

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joined by the lovely Laura, Lauren and Beth. Hiya.

Beth:

Hello.

Lauren:

Hello everyone.

Clare:

So today we're going to be starting to look at

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leadership. We've got some exciting news to share

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that the lovely Laura has been nominated as

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Nursery Manager of the Year at the Nursery World

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Awards this weekend. Congratulations. Thank you.

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So we're really excited to be able to share that.

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So we thought what would bring to you, over the

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next few episodes really, is some of the

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leadership that takes place at Atelier, some of

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the leadership that lays the foundations for the

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work we do, the philosophy that we follow, the

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pedagogy, that we implement, but also some of the

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practical elements. So we're thinking about the

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staff supervisions, the way in which we grow our

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leaders, the retention of our staff. so we look

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forward to sharing that with you over the next few

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episodes. So I guess to begin with, for our

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listeners, if we could just sort of begin to

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describe what we see as the leadership that we

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undertake at Atelier. Laura, do you want to start

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us off with that as our new Nursery Manager of the

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Year?

Laura:

Thank you. And I have to say a big thank you to

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all of you as well, because you were the ones that

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actually nominated me for Nursery Manager of the

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Year. So it's the biggest honour to have been,

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shortlisted for that award. So thank you. so at

Laura:

Atelier, leadership is, I think, very different

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from a lot of leadership I've actually ever, ah,

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encountered or led before. when I first joined at

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Atelier, I started as an early years practitioner

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and, I was immediately just blown away by the

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leadership team at Atelier. I never felt more

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supported, I never felt more heard, I felt valued,

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I felt, involved in a lot of decisions that were

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being made. and I just felt part of a really

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loving, team where even if something went wrong or

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even if something happened that wasn't planned

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for, I knew that that team had my back and they

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were there to guide me into support me and, and to

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love me really. And as I've kind of stepped into

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that, that leadership role, that's very much how I

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think we all try and lead is with that sense of,

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understanding, of empathy, but also with a real,

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drive to be the best that we can be, to be. We

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always talk about being, what do we say? It's

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always optimistic or always unapologetically.

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Unapologetically optimistic. So always being

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positive. We also have a saying about how actually

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we support in public and challenge in private. So

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we always make sure that the message is shared by

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the leadership team, are consistent, that they're

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fair and then we decide between us if we need to

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change anything. But actually, I think the

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leadership here is based upon a real trust,

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respect, and love for our teams. And I think that

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I felt that when I first started. I hope that's

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how all of our staff feel. They feel held, valued,

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heard, whilst they're under our leadership.

Clare:

Gosh, there were so many key words in there as you

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were kind of talking, whether it was the trust,

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the respect, the involvement, the optimism. And I

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think it's so important, isn't it? Because we

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always say to every family as they walk in the

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door, we will look after and love your babies like

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they were our own. And actually all of our vision

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and our value from the top has to actually really

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be owned and, known and understood by every single

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member of staff. And so I think it's really

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interesting to hear your journey coming in as an

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early years practitioner and kind of feeling that

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sense of belonging but also then growing with it

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and kind of moving that forward. Lauren, what

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about you? So you kind of, you've had lots of

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different roles, so you started with us, as a

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leader of learning. You moved into a deputy

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manager role. You now have quality practise leads,

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so you're kind of leading across both of the

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teams, but also on a management level, but not

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with direct responsibility for the nursery. So

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that must be quite complex in terms of how does

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that work, work for you?

Lauren:

Yeah, it's taken a little bit of figuring out, I

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guess. I think what's important for us at

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ateliers, we always say that we're not

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hierarchical. Is that the right. Non hierarchical.

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So it's not a case of, actually, I don't think

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anyone would come into the role and be like,

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right, I sit here on a level compared to this

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person, we wouldn't have. We don't top trump each

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other. As if, like, well, I've got. My role is

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higher than yours. So then my say goes, I think

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that's quite important. And that goes through all

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of the team. If an, apprentice, for example, had

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been with us for two weeks and they had wanted to

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challenge us and wanted to question us and wanted

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to put in a new idea or concept, we would always

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listen and value that. So I think that really in

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my role, it's not as if I would come on site and

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be like, right, I'm quality, practise, lead.

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You're doing this. I think that that's where I've

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made it. That's where I think it's been possible

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to, kind of be successful in the role, because

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especially if I know lots of colleagues that would

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work across multiple sites, it can be really

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tricky because you feel like you're dipping in and

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out. But I think going in with, like, really, like

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an open, like open ears, listening and then being

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effective on that day when I'm on that site,

Lauren:

that's how I think I make it work.

Clare:

Yeah. And I think it is really interesting way of

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working, isn't it? Because we're not a normal

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nursery in that we have, you know, we don't have

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room leaders, we don't have heads of babies or

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heads of toddlers or deputy heads of toddlers. We

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literally have a leadership team. But all of us

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are, you know, as we are here today, you know,

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we've escaped from the nursery floor for an hour,

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to be able to record the podcast. But, you know,

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since the beginning of August, we've all been

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directly in the nurseries from the floor. And I

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think that's something that I've always felt is so

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important for us as a leadership team, that

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heterarchy of not having necessarily a view of a

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different authority, but actually the sense of

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responsibility and accountability that you hold.

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So you might be within a leadership or a

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management position, so you naturally have the

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accountability and the responsibility, but how you

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deliver, is very, very much distributive and

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collaborative. and I think it's something that we

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do incredibly well in terms of the way the team

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feels and sees themselves.

Beth:

Yeah, I think as a leader, I always kind of look

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at if I'm not prepared to learn something every

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single day, or if I've got to a point where I

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think I know everything, then I'm probably not

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being a very good leader at that point, because I

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don't feel like I need to hear other people's

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opinions or ideas or ways that we can incorporate

Beth:

their skill set, into what we do at atelier. So I

Beth:

think. Yeah, I really agree with you, Lauren,

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around. It's a team Effort. it's not one person

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saying, this is the way we do it and this is how

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we do it. Everybody's got to be on board.

Lauren:

Well, is it?

Clare:

There's that lovely saying, isn't it? I don't know

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who says it, but that kind of surrounding yourself

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as a leader, you should surround yourselves with

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people who have different opinions and different

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thoughts and who will challenge your own thinking.

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And I think that's something that we've always

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tried really hard to do atelier. Because when we

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look at who we're appointing, to join us, or who

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actually is growing through the ranks, into the

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leadership team, it's that bit about actually what

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are their values and what do they bring? And

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that's why, you know, as a, as a manager, I always

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chose to surround myself with, with team members.

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He had different attributes to my own. and I think

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when we look at that optimism or we look at the

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prudence or we look at the, the risk taking, or we

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look at, you know, that real direct type of

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leadership, what we call that redness, you know,

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is really important that we have different,

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different personalities, different values and

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different attributes that we all bring together.

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So, Lauren, we know that you're the one that loves

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all the reading and all of the theory that goes on

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behind everything. So there's so many,

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publications about leadership, about management.

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There's very few specifically around early years

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leadership. But, you know, we're hoping that

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that's developing as early years leadership is

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recognised. but what we really want to think about

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is kind of, for our listeners is around the

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leadership, both this vision, setting and

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relationship building and how we kind of balance

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those. Because we know that there's obviously a

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very significant difference between leadership and

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management and, one being very visionary and the

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other one being more operational. But actually,

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when we're thinking about vision, setting and

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relationship building specifically, you know, how

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do you, how do you balance those roles in

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practise?

Lauren:

For me, it's about thinking about there isn't one,

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prototype of a successful member of the leadership

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team that, whether it's a nursery manager or

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whether it's an area manager or the head of the

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nursery, you're all going to look. All of your

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kind of composition is going to look a little bit

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different and some people might have a bigger

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backpack of, management skills and that backpack

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might be really heavy, but then in terms of their,

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their leadership skills, their backpack might be a

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little bit lighter. So I think somebody might be

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really good at doing rotors, organising the stock

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that Comes in very logical and mathematical. But

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maybe when we're kind of, nurturing our leaders,

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we're looking at them being reflective of which

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bag of skills do they have that's really heavy and

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which one's a bit lighter and needs building up?

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and then we will kind of coach and mentor M and do

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sort of like a team teach approach to kind of

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bolster the area that they need to develop. So

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whether it's. They might need, to develop their,

Lauren:

emotional intelligence, for example, because some

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people might have come from a sector that doesn't,

Lauren:

really talk about emotions. so, yeah, I think

Lauren:

coaching your team, understanding that they're not

Lauren:

all going to have come with 10 skills that are in

Lauren:

exactly the same strength and then identifying

Lauren:

where we could develop those areas is kind of the

Lauren:

key to success. But I've always looked at it like,

Lauren:

I know when I. Like throughout my career I've

Lauren:

looked at people and thought, I want to be just

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like them. Like, they run their classroom like

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this and I want to be the prototype of them. And

Lauren:

I've tried to do that before and, it doesn't work,

Lauren:

does it? Like, you've got to what? Like whatever

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the vision of a successful leader is, it's not one

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prototype that you can copy. You've got to be

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aware, haven't you, of what skills you're

Lauren:

bringing, what your kind of traits and

Lauren:

characteristics are and then how you can make the

Lauren:

most of it. I guess I think it's a really.

Clare:

Interesting point, Lauren, because I was thinking

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as you were talking about, the middle leaders

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training that we did with our own team. So we've

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been doing quite a lot of leadership training via

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the consultancy at the moment for various

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settings. and we really took stop, didn't we? And

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stopped and went. Actually, do you know what, in

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terms of our own staff succession, we should be

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really doing this with our team as well. So we had

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the lovely, Katherine and Eve, who are just newly

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appointed deputies, join us and Mia, who is really

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striving to join into kind of the senior team from

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Chippenham. And, we started to do exactly that and

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looking at what their attributes were and what

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they felt they came with. And it was really

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interesting to see when we were thinking about the

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drivers and the strengths that they had and how

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they were kind of striving for excellence. They

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were all striving for excellence, but they were

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all heading at it from completely different

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situations. So Eve is, you know, really determined

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in tackling situations without becoming overly

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formal, whereas Katherine, you Know, she's head of

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Happiness and she's always looking at it from a

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level of well being. And, me is that kind of real

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ability to say it as it is and kind of see it and

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say it. And I think they were all kind of really

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learning from each other that actually you can be

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really analytical in your thinking or you can be

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really driven within your practise, but actually,

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if you have just that, that one aspect and you

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don't look outside of it, it actually prevents you

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and it kind of creates those blind spots within

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your leadership. And I think that's what I really

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love about our little team, is actually, you know,

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when we think about. We always describe them

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atelier, don't we, as colours. So we kind of have

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that red hat, which is that real driven focus. you

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know, but actually, you do need some of that

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yellowness. You need some of that, ability to be

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gentle and to take the team with you. But you also

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need to have some, some green, which is really

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reflective and proactive. And you also need some

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blue, which is a bit more prudent and analytical.

Clare:

Because when we're making all of those decisions,

Clare:

whether it's a finance decision or, you know,

Clare:

whether it's, you know, we had one day, didn't we,

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where I went, come on, we're all going. And we.

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And we literally, I just drove you to a field and

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I went, do you think we could make it? Do you

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think we could make a nursery in this field? And

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there's, you know, me with all of this huge amount

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of optimism and, you know, seeing little risk

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going, oh, it'll be absolutely brilliant. And

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don't worry about all of this river that's running

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through it. And. And don't worry that actually

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nobody can drive here because it's on this tiny,

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tiny, tiny lane. And don't worry that actually

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we're only allowed to use it 28 days of the year

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for planning consent. And so, you know, Lucy was

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kind of like, it's really, really beautiful, but

Clare:

what about, And Beth was like, it could be really

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lovely, but have you thought of. And then Lauren,

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you were like, I can just imagine it. But what

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about the river and what about the water and what

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about the. And actually there's a public footpath.

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And so actually we all needed to put on those

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different kind of hats to say, could we make this

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situation work? Could we be dreamy and have a

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completely outdoor nurse running every single day?

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Is the team at the right place? Are the finances

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there? And ready Is the risk going to be too great

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for the other sites and actually how we kind of

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pulled that. And I think what's beautiful to see

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is how we see that in ourselves, but also how we

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see that in those up and coming leaders that

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we're, we're growing and we're bringing alongside

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us. and I love to see the way now that, you know,

Clare:

just since those training, you know, we did that

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training rollout nearly two years ago with Rosie

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and Clare and Meg across both of the teams and how

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their leadership has really changed and developed

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in that time and, you know, and Raisie now is a

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really established leader in her own right and

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she's now taking on the leadership of Bath in her

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own right with such care and such consideration

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and such understanding and empathy. But she, you

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can see when she's making those decisions that she

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still holds all of those other colour factors in

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her head when she's making those decisions. so

Clare:

it's a, it's a really special way of working, I

Clare:

think, and a really special way of growing those

Clare:

teams to be able to support us.

Beth:

I think it also really helps to like, minimise

Beth:

that amount of toxicity. I think when you've got a

Beth:

lot of people that are leading in a similar way,

Beth:

it doesn't have room for, yeah, other people's

Beth:

ideas, opinions or different ways of living and

Beth:

different backgrounds and different skill sets. So

Beth:

I think that really helps to go to just talk with

Beth:

somebody with a different hat on and go, what does

Beth:

that sound like? What does that feel like? How do

Beth:

you interpret that situation? so, yeah, it makes

Beth:

it a nice working space as well.

Clare:

I guess that is that difference though, isn't it,

Clare:

between the leadership and the management? You

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know, if we were all managers and we all came to

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work, we'd be coming to work to look at the

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ratios, we'd be coming to look at the profit

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margins, we'd be coming to look at the operational

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side of things. And of course, we know that we're

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led by the early years, by foundation stage. We

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know we've just seen recent changes to that. We

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know we've now got a new inspection framework and

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guidance. So listen out to a future podcast all

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about that as well. but it is around how we still

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stay visionary within some of those complexities

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of operations. And I think, Beth, you're brilliant

Clare:

at that in terms of that real ability to ensure we

Clare:

never lose sight of the vision. I don't know if

Clare:

you. Do you want to share a little bit about what

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we've got planned for the staff team from

Clare:

September in terms of our tribing and our

Clare:

commitments.

Beth:

so yes, every September we pull together both of

Beth:

our nursery teams and they join us in deciding

Beth:

actually what those commitments will be for the

Beth:

following year. So whether that's a botanical

Beth:

schools, whether that's gallery schools, things

Beth:

that we can really start to, introduced to the

Beth:

nurseries and across both sites. So actually both

Beth:

of our children are having those same experiences.

Beth:

but fundamentally it's led by our teams because

Beth:

actually we can't do anything unless they're on

Beth:

side. Like they have to be part of that ah,

Beth:

vision, they have to be part of those, that bigger

Beth:

picture and they know that they can ask us any

Beth:

questions, talk to us about any concerns they've

Beth:

got as we introduce new things or kind of even

Beth:

consolidate things that we've brought in the past.

Beth:

so yeah, it's a really lovely way of pulling our

Beth:

team together and deciding actually what do we

Beth:

want for atelier for the next year.

Lauren:

Beth?

Clare:

I think that's a really interesting concept in

Clare:

terms of the tribing and of the commitments and

Clare:

actually as a leadership team we're really aware

Clare:

of the strategic elements that we want the

Clare:

nurseries to move forward with each year. But we

Clare:

also want our teams to be really involved in that

Clare:

and really participate within the decisions and to

Clare:

hear their voices and to be able to move forward

Clare:

with their own ideas because they're actually the

Clare:

people that are doing it on a day to day basis. So

Clare:

Laura, when we're thinking about holding that

Clare:

bigger picture, what does that look like in terms

Clare:

of our commitments and our tribing for our staff

Clare:

on a day to day basis?

Laura:

So with our commitments and our tribing on a day

Laura:

to day basis, for me it's all about, as we've

Laura:

already spoken about, staff being heard, staff

Laura:

being valued, but also everybody having that same

Laura:

vision, the same values, the same expectations. So

Laura:

we always talk about whether you're on the bus

Laura:

with us and you're tribing and you really support

Laura:

what we're doing. because everybody needs to have

Laura:

that same vision, those same goals and all be

Laura:

striving for the same thing. so it's very

Laura:

important day to day that everybody is working

Laura:

seamlessly, they are communicating well and we are

Laura:

all working towards the same shared vision.

Laura:

Because if different people are trying to do

Laura:

different things or different people have

Laura:

different views, that's when you then have those

Laura:

clashes and you can really struggle to then make a

Laura:

team cohesive and work together. So it's all about

Laura:

Supporting the team, hearing their voices as well,

Laura:

hearing their ideas. If things aren't working, why

Laura:

are they not working? How can we be solution

Laura:

focused rather than, maybe focusing on the things

Laura:

that might be causing some challenges? but also I

Laura:

think it's about being very present as a

Laura:

leadership team. So we always talk about being on

Laura:

the floor once and actually being with the staff

Laura:

on the nursery floor day to day. And that's my

Laura:

favourite part of the job is walking the floor

Laura:

every day, being with the children, being with the

Laura:

staff and actually watching it in practise,

Laura:

modelling, practise, being able to support staff

Laura:

in their professional development. So being able

Laura:

to suggest new ways of doing things or, say, have

Laura:

you thought about trying it this way? Or maybe we

Laura:

could try it this way, and giving them then the.

Laura:

Empowering them to then feel that they've got the

Laura:

ability to make those decisions, to have that

Laura:

initiative and to push forward with our shared

Laura:

goals. And I think as well, it's just about

Laura:

everybody feeling that they're valued and

Laura:

everybody having. And like, we've spoken about not

Laura:

being a hierarchy but being a heterarchy.

Laura:

Everybody feeling that they are part of the same

Laura:

team and that there's nobody as, ah, I walk

Laura:

through the nursery floor, I'm still, you know,

Laura:

picking up a tissue and putting in the bin. I'm

Laura:

still, you know, cleaning the toilets as I. I

Laura:

don't believe that there's anything that I

Laura:

shouldn't be doing as a manager. I feel that I

Laura:

should be mucking in just as much as everybody

Laura:

else. And I think that, mindset really helps the

Laura:

team to see the leadership as people, that are

Laura:

there to help them, to support them and to be on

Laura:

the same level as them. Rather than just being

Laura:

someone that's walking past and giving orders,

Laura:

you're actually there in it with them, working

Laura:

through it together. So I think it's just about

Laura:

being present, holding everyone, holding the same

Laura:

vibe, values, and just allowing everyone's voices

Laura:

to be heard.

Clare:

Yeah, it's so, so important, isn't it, when we're

Clare:

thinking about a proper collaborative approach and

Clare:

we don't do things normally anyway, do we? So

Clare:

we've got different age ranges spread across all

Clare:

of the nursery. We've got different specialisms in

Clare:

terms of our atelieristas or in terms of our

Clare:

pedagogistas, but it's also around, you know, the

Clare:

structure and the routine that's very visible from

Clare:

behind the scenes, but actually from the staff,

Clare:

from the children, not really noticing that. So we

Clare:

call that. That sort of rhythm, isn't it? So when

Clare:

we're thinking about the rhythm of the nursery, is

Clare:

it easier or is it harder, working the way we

Clare:

work, do you think? So when we're thinking about,

Clare:

you know, we. We're encouraging all of these staff

Clare:

to be feisty and strong and determined and

Clare:

empowered. And then we're kind of saying, we also

Clare:

want you to feel this way and be. But then we want

Clare:

you to work in this incredibly challenging way.

Clare:

You know, would it be easier just to shut the

Clare:

doors and have them all in one space and have

Clare:

separate training opportunities? I don't know.

Lauren:

It doesn't link to our values. Like, our values

Lauren:

are, that we want our children to be autonomous.

Lauren:

We want them to go out into the world and make a

Lauren:

difference, and our leaders are exactly the same.

Lauren:

Like, we. We want them to go out there and shake

Lauren:

things up a bit. And, yeah, like, we love to keep

Lauren:

our stuff forever, don't we? But if they are gonna

Lauren:

go on and do something next, we want to shape them

Lauren:

to be the very best that they can be. So, yeah,

Lauren:

no, I don't. I think we'd be really bored if we

Lauren:

just made everybody really in a cage. But also,

Lauren:

like, we probably wouldn't. The ones of us that

Lauren:

really believe in it and are really passionate

Lauren:

about it probably wouldn't be here as well. So do

Lauren:

you think?

Clare:

I think it is. I love. I love what you said. We

Clare:

want them to shake it up. We want them to shake up

Clare:

the world and shake up the sector and actually not

Clare:

just accept that there is one way of doing

Clare:

anything and one way of that approach.

Lauren:

So in terms of our leadership team, we would want

Lauren:

all of our educators, all members of the team, to

Lauren:

be as strong and as feisty and as independent as

Lauren:

Anna, as autonomous as we expect our children to

Lauren:

be. We want them to go out into the world and

Lauren:

shake things up a bit, make a difference and stand

Lauren:

up for what is right for children.

Clare:

I think that's beautiful, and I think it is that.

Clare:

But is it about shaking up the sector, for our

Clare:

children? In exactly the same way we want that for

Clare:

our staff teams and exactly the same way we want

Clare:

that for our settings. We want them to be the best

Clare:

they can be at all times. And actually, sometimes

Clare:

that comes with challenges. Sometimes that comes

Clare:

with staff recruitment issues. Sometimes it comes

Clare:

with staff retention. Sometimes it comes with

Clare:

really making sure everybody stays on the same

Clare:

page all of the time. Because we want our team to

Clare:

have their voices. We want our team to have their

Clare:

voices. Heard, but we also need to have that

Clare:

strategic direction that we're moving in. So I

Clare:

think that motivation of staff is really, really

Clare:

important, isn't it? How we keep continually

Clare:

communicating, how we keep to continually sharing

Clare:

the messages, recognising the celebrations, and

Clare:

really honouring the work that the staff are doing

Clare:

on a day to day basis. So in terms of that, Beth,

Clare:

one of the roles that you do is really looking at

Clare:

how we put those support mechanisms in for staff

Clare:

because we're asking a huge amount of them, we're

Clare:

asking them to work in a mixed stage approach,

Clare:

we're asking them to work in a free flow approach,

Clare:

we're asking them to work to the highest level,

Clare:

that they possibly can in terms of the education

Clare:

and the care that they're offering children. So,

Clare:

so in terms of the practicalities on a day to day

Clare:

basis, what does that look like for each of those

Clare:

staff members in terms of the support and the

Clare:

supervision that they receive?

Beth:

so every, every member of the team, will have a

Beth:

supervision. So those that are new to the team,

Beth:

will meet with regularly just to, just to ask

Beth:

sometimes those silly questions if they've got any

Beth:

that they think are silly but aren't silly. so

Beth:

yeah, lots of that initial input at the beginning

Beth:

is really, really important. Exactly like how we

Beth:

settle in our children. Actually start with your

Beth:

new teams and they feel confident, comfortable to

Beth:

question, to discuss, to look in, to just delve

Beth:

into every aspect of the nursery. Actually, six

Beth:

months down the line you've got somebody that's

Beth:

really strong in their practise and what they're

Beth:

doing and the learning and the education that's

Beth:

happening on the floor. so then we continue to

Beth:

push, actually really push our team to develop and

Beth:

to be able to reach their full potential as well.

Beth:

I think it's really important to know what, where

Beth:

they want to take their career to, so that you can

Beth:

actually discuss in their supervisions about

Beth:

actually what are their next steps, what are their

Beth:

kind of goals for this year and support them

Beth:

within achieving things for them too. so yes,

Beth:

supervisions are a really important time. You can

Beth:

talk about children, you can talk about families.

Beth:

It's a really good point to be able to include,

Beth:

any kind of safeguarding concerns and discuss kind

Beth:

of those really strong points that you need to

Beth:

discuss within every supervision, but then

Beth:

actually being able to fine tune some certain

Beth:

aspects that you might have concerns around for

Beth:

them, and talking that through collaboratively. So

Beth:

what are the next steps that they feel comfortable

Beth:

in being able to Achieve the next layer of

Beth:

something, whether that's care, whether that's

Beth:

education, whether that's, I don't know, they want

Beth:

to go and do a training course on forest school.

Beth:

Whatever their interests are and whatever they're

Beth:

peaking, yeah, whatever they're wanting to look

Beth:

into. so there and then I think it's always really

Beth:

important to end a supervision with a bit of a

Beth:

review day so they know that actually there will

Beth:

be a time to come back and reflect on what's been

Beth:

spoken about, to break down steps and strategies

Beth:

that they've put into place already. and just

Beth:

having a listening ear, sometimes you don't even

Beth:

need to do anything. But if they can just go, oh,

Beth:

today's been a bit of a tough day but actually

Beth:

this is what I've thought about and this is what

Beth:

I'm going to do to make tomorrow different. I

Beth:

think they just really appreciate it.

Clare:

I think it is so valuable, isn't it? And I think

Clare:

because we lead directly on the floor, you know,

Clare:

we're not office based managers and leaders, so

Clare:

much of that kind of practise is picked up there

Clare:

and then, isn't it? Even if it's just like, oh,

Clare:

could you just turn your chair to the left just so

Clare:

you've got sight of this side of the room or oh,

Clare:

actually I didn't know that we'd ah, stop self

Clare:

serving at lunchtime or whatever it might be that

Clare:

kind of, of just pulls them up and just kind of

Clare:

keeps that challenge going in their head. But I

Clare:

think the supervisions are special in terms of

Clare:

that. They give staff the chance to take a step

Clare:

back and really reflect on their practise and

Clare:

really think about the situations that they're

Clare:

facing with their children or the situations that

Clare:

they're facing within their team, the dynamics and

Clare:

also to have that coaching to be able to overcome

Clare:

the challenges they're facing. So, you know, I had

Clare:

an exhausting day yesterday, but it was a

Clare:

brilliantly exhausting day, whereby we started our

Clare:

appraisal cycle. So, you know, we had, I did six,

Clare:

six appraisals yesterday, which isn't normal for

Clare:

us. We don't normally sit down and do a whole day

Clare:

in that way. but actually Rosie and I had looked

Clare:

at kind of the rotor and the needs of the nursery

Clare:

and how we were best going to manage it and cover

Clare:

it and it was really lovely to be able to take

Clare:

that m amount of time with all of those staff to

Clare:

just really explore what had happened for them for

Clare:

the last year and Build on all of those

Clare:

supervision conversations that had happened across

Clare:

the last 12 months and really identify the

Clare:

development that had happened to the strengths

Clare:

that those staff were showing. But then tease in,

Clare:

like you said, what is it that they're really

Clare:

striving for and put in that push and that

Clare:

challenge and to question and to give reflection

Clare:

by, you know, are there different ways we can do

Clare:

it? And, you know, we had, the Grace who's working

Clare:

in one of our baby nests, and she kind of, you

Clare:

know, she came out really excited because

Clare:

actually, something that could have become a

Clare:

negative in terms of actually an understanding of

Clare:

that pedagogical approach, which became something

Clare:

really exciting. So she's now going to be working

Clare:

with Beth and Rosie on really developing that baby

Clare:

nas and looking at the environment within it,

Clare:

based on the research that's coming through from

Clare:

it. That's going to link really beautifully into

Clare:

the whole staff training day that we've got

Clare:

planned with Jules, in January. And so you could

Clare:

kind of see by having those leadership attributes,

Clare:

you know, we turned something around into an

Clare:

absolute positive, into an absolute celebration

Clare:

for her to go forward.

Beth:

Yeah, I really agree. I think appraisal shouldn't

Beth:

be a situation where a member of staff is worried

Beth:

or scared to come and find you. yes, as a leader,

Beth:

as a manager, you have to have some difficult

Beth:

conversations, but I think the way you approach

Beth:

those and actually the, the way you deal with it

Beth:

afterwards, when you're back on the floor and

Beth:

you're supporting them to be able to achieve,

Beth:

makes the difference. And I think we have so many

Beth:

people that join us and they're like, like, so

Beth:

worried about that first appraisal cycle and you

Beth:

just think there shouldn't be any bits of

Beth:

information in there that, ah, you are not aware

Beth:

of. And because we are on the floor, you're able

Beth:

to talk about, oh, actually, I would have handled

Beth:

that slightly differently. So you've already got

Beth:

your foot in to bring up some of those

Beth:

conversations and to tackle some of those concerns

Beth:

that you've got.

Clare:

There shouldn't ever really be any shocks and

Clare:

surprises when you're going into those appraisal

Clare:

cycles because, you know, if you're doing your job

Clare:

effectively as a leader and you're, you're

Clare:

identifying, either through your peer observations

Clare:

or through your practise being led on the floor or

Clare:

spending time with your team and hearing them

Clare:

through your supervision of those teams throughout

Clare:

the year, then actually what you're looking to do

Clare:

is deepen and develop within that appraisal cycle.

Clare:

So you're really looking to move that member of

Clare:

staff forward in the direction that's going to

Clare:

support their growth professionally and

Clare:

personally, but also the growth of the Satang. And

Clare:

so I think it's really important that we take

Clare:

forward that strategic thinking within them. So,

Clare:

you know, where you don't ever go into those

Clare:

appraisals without really knowing, as a leadership

Clare:

team, what our expectations are of, of ourselves,

Clare:

for the next 12 months, but also what it is we

Clare:

want to achieve for the setting within the next 12

Clare:

months. So, you know, throughout the whole of July

Clare:

and August, we were thinking about, you know, our,

Clare:

Our, metre in Hands project, or we were thinking

Clare:

about, you know, the gallery school is going to

Clare:

take forward into Bath, or whether, you know, what

Clare:

does that look like in terms of the allotment

Clare:

projects that will come through into Chippenham

Clare:

and actually how do we then feed that through into

Clare:

the right staff at the right time, at the right

Clare:

pace? Oh, gosh, there's just. There's so much

Clare:

within that, isn't it? So what about the

Clare:

education, Lauren? So we, you know, we're talking

Clare:

about that supervision process, the appraisal

Clare:

process, but, you know, next week you're also

Clare:

starting those educator confrontos. So what does

Clare:

that look like as a leadership role in terms of

Clare:

the education that's taking place in the pedagogy?

Clare:

and how that influences, I guess, the children's

Clare:

experiences within the fatang.

Lauren:

So from an education hat or point of view is

Lauren:

exactly the same as how what you were talking

Lauren:

about with Beth and about being on the floor and

Lauren:

having those, daily conversations, having those,

Lauren:

what do we call them, like the walk and talk or

Lauren:

the learning walks. All of those conversations

Lauren:

that we're having with our educators every day

Lauren:

feeds into how we might support the educators to

Lauren:

move forward. So, for example, I know Holly has

Lauren:

been working with Laura, in Chippenham in terms of

Lauren:

her environment and her setups and how the

Lauren:

provocations that she's setting up are inviting,

Lauren:

especially for our toddlers. We noticed that some

Lauren:

of the setups were really geared towards our older

Lauren:

children who had actually just left and gone to

Lauren:

school. So we've been having those conversations

Lauren:

since the beginning of September. We really want

Lauren:

to try and tweak these setups to meet the needs of

Lauren:

our toddlers. And then I was aware that Laura had

Lauren:

had that conversation with Holly. and then as I'm

Lauren:

doing walkthroughs, I'm maybe pointing out the

Lauren:

things I love. I love the way that that clay wheel

Lauren:

was out today. Like look at those toddlers going

Lauren:

and accessing that clay. They're absolutely loving

Lauren:

it. Holly. So we're all of that drip feeding of

Lauren:

messages is very consistent with all the members

Lauren:

of the team but it is also like a daily process.

Lauren:

and then for us our ah, kind of educational

Lauren:

discussions are always ring fence. So we have team

Lauren:

time every day. So each team gets a period in the

Lauren:

morning where they get to talk about and reflect

Lauren:

upon the learning that's happening in their space.

Lauren:

And then every educator also has at least two

Lauren:

hours a week to have their individual planning

Lauren:

time. So that time is ring fenced. And the

Lauren:

conversations that we're having daily on the floor

Lauren:

are then being kind of backed up when they're

Lauren:

having their team time or individual planning time

Lauren:

with one of the members of the senior team joining

Lauren:

and having a discussion with those educators. So

Lauren:

yeah, I think it's about, we describe it in school

Lauren:

about kind of doing afl, it's just ringing any

Lauren:

like old bells up assessment for learning. So we

Lauren:

would say like, oh, like we noticed that they

Lauren:

couldn't actually dialogue their setup very

Lauren:

confidently. So that's what I'm going to be

Lauren:

working on M with them for the next few weeks.

Lauren:

When I'm walking through that room I'm going to be

Lauren:

really focusing on the dialogue of their setup and

Lauren:

when I'm joining them in team time I'm also going

Lauren:

to be asking them to develop that skill so that it

Lauren:

all triangulates.

Clare:

So loads of opportunity for dialogue and

Clare:

reflective practise, reflective discussion. So

Clare:

Laura, I guess from my perspective, one of the

Clare:

things you do really, really beautiful as a leader

Clare:

and a manager and I know that's one of the reasons

Clare:

that you will have been shortlisted for your award

Clare:

at the weekend and we're calling it your award

Clare:

because in our eyes you're our winner already. So

Clare:

it doesn' matter if your name's read out on the

Clare:

night or not, but I think it's around, you know,

Clare:

thinking about as a leader, when you're looking at

Clare:

your team and you're looking at the diversity of

Clare:

each of the individuals, how are you encouraging

Clare:

that reflective practise that Lauren and Beth have

Clare:

talked about within supervision and within

Clare:

educator confrontos to actually kind of create a

Clare:

space for that professional dialogue outside of

Clare:

those specific meetings and specific times because

Clare:

actually so much can happen within that month or

Clare:

within that six week period, can't it, between

Clare:

those four formal meetings. So how are you

Clare:

promoting that kind of reflective practise on a

Clare:

Daily basis when you've got so many diverse

Clare:

individuals that you're bringing together to form

Clare:

one team and one vision. Yeah.

Laura:

I think reflective practise is, is so crucial to

Laura:

everything we do in early years. And it was, you

Laura:

know, one of the first modules I studied when I

Laura:

did my degree was about reflective practise and

Laura:

actually how do we reflect. So I think it's so

Laura:

important. Everybody in the nursery is able to

Laura:

reflect on their practise, to have support to do

Laura:

that. And like you say, supervisions and

Laura:

appraisals are really good times to be able to do

Laura:

that. But when we're on the floor, again, because

Laura:

I've been an early years practitioner, I've been a

Laura:

senior, I've been a deputy, I can put myself back

Laura:

into those shoes and imagine what it's like to be

Laura:

that early years practitioner who's got two babies

Laura:

that need to go to bed before 2 o' clock, but

Laura:

something's not gone quite right and it's all

Laura:

about, again, empowering them and giving them,

Laura:

some suggestions, but also doing it in a very kind

Laura:

way. I would say I'm quite a gentle, leader. I

Laura:

think sometimes we've had conversations about

Laura:

maybe having a bit more of a red streak or being a

Laura:

bit, a bit firmer. But actually, for me, I think

Laura:

about how I would like to be spoken to, how I

Laura:

would best, respond. And, for most of my team,

Laura:

it's very similar to me being very gentle but

Laura:

being supportive, and also really knowing your

Laura:

team, because some of my team, actually, I have to

Laura:

be black and white. I just have to say, right,

Laura:

that hasn't worked, what we're going to do next

Laura:

time. But for some of them it's more of a gentle

Laura:

discussion of, oh, I can see that, you know, so

Laura:

and so didn't go to bed on time. What, what

Laura:

happened there? How can we work around that for

Laura:

next time? and again, then giving them the skills,

Laura:

coaching them to then be able to do that for

Laura:

themselves next time or to be able to work it

Laura:

within their room team, rather than potentially

Laura:

maybe just having a bit of a moment of panic and

Laura:

then not really knowing what to do. and I think

Laura:

it's just, again, being present all the time so

Laura:

you can follow it up. So if it's happened on a

Laura:

Monday, you're there on a Tuesday to say, right,

Laura:

so yesterday that didn't quite go to plan. How

Laura:

have you spoken to your room team? How are we

Laura:

going to make it work today? So that actually

Laura:

they've got that support in place until you've

Laura:

kind of scaffold that learning, until actually you

Laura:

can whip the scaffold away because they've got it

Laura:

and they, they're never going to do that again or

Laura:

they've reflected on that. and I think as well,

Laura:

it's just leading by example. I reflect upon my

Laura:

practise all the time and if I've made a mistake

Laura:

or something's gone wrong or I could have dealt

Laura:

with something differently, I'll be really open

Laura:

and honest with my team about that and say, oh,

Laura:

maybe we should have done that a bit differently.

Laura:

Or maybe I could have dealt with that a bit

Laura:

differently because again, it's really important

Laura:

that they're seeing that I'm reflective in my

Laura:

practise and I'm learning continuously too. So I

Laura:

think leading by example, supporting scaffolding,

Laura:

and modelling and just, just being that, that ear

Laura:

to listen to them. So very judgement free zone as

Laura:

well. I think that's how I see it. if someone's

Laura:

made a mistake or something's gone wrong, I'm not

Laura:

cross, I'm not angry. It's about actually, okay,

Laura:

how do we make that not happen again or how do we

Laura:

find a different solution? So, yeah, I lead, I

Laura:

lead with a lot of kindness and empathy, which I

Laura:

think sometimes can be my downfall. But we're

Laura:

working on a slightly fiery, more fiery streak.

Laura:

But yeah, I think it's, it's about listening,

Laura:

being there and just, yeah, just hearing them and

Laura:

supporting them.

Clare:

We love that you lead with gentle and kindness,

Clare:

Laura. so, yeah, I think it is. It's one of those

Clare:

things that's really hard, isn't it? And when you

Clare:

think about the theories of leadership, you know,

Clare:

that situational leadership and, and how you have

Clare:

to adapt based on the situation you're facing and

Clare:

I think so much of that is also adapted to the

Clare:

person that you're working with and the, the, the

Clare:

end goal that you're trying to achieve. Because

Clare:

actually, you know, some of our staff you could

Clare:

crush really, really quickly if you spoke to them

Clare:

in a way that actually was too direct. and so

Clare:

actually it's around, you know, very much for us

Clare:

as a whole team, isn't it? Taking the team with

Clare:

us, so being really clear in what our expectations

Clare:

are, being really clear in what our end goal is,

Clare:

but actually accepting that, you know, one member

Clare:

of staff will, will take a different route and a

Clare:

different direction to get there to another. But,

Clare:

actually as you long, as long as we as leaders

Clare:

stay unwavering on what our expectations are and

Clare:

what it is for our ah, quality for our children

Clare:

and for the care practises that are offered and

Clare:

for the educational approaches, then actually it

Clare:

doesn't matter if we take different pathways to

Clare:

get there because actually we are all different in

Clare:

our makeup, we're different in our values, we're

Clare:

different in our understanding, in our

Clare:

qualifications, in our experience. so we wouldn't

Clare:

want all of our staff team to take the same route.

Clare:

because that wouldn't be celebrating their own

Clare:

unique ignus either. Gosh, there is a lot to think

Clare:

about when we're thinking about leadership. So I'm

Clare:

really glad that we've got a second episode to

Clare:

explore more of the practical elements of it. but

Clare:

I guess for our, for our listeners if we could

Clare:

just take a minute to really think about the

Clare:

qualities and the attributes that we hold as

Clare:

leaders and what we believe is really important.

Clare:

and to summarise really our leadership philosophy

Clare:

and what it is that's important to us.

Laura:

Us.

Clare:

Anyone fancy picking that one up first?

Beth:

I think for me the qualities for me would be just

Beth:

supportive. I think being supportive and honest is

Beth:

really, really big things for me. And I think if

Beth:

they know that you will be clear, you will be m

Beth:

true in your responses to your team, then they

Beth:

support you and they join you and they push

Beth:

forwards with you and they want to be on the same

Beth:

page as you.

Clare:

Beautiful.

Lauren:

Okay, Lauren, I think it's important to sing from

Lauren:

the same hymn sheet so be consistent, be

Lauren:

unwavering, instil confidence in your team that

Lauren:

you know what you're doing, why you're doing it

Lauren:

and you're going to always stay on that same

Lauren:

track. You're always going to be doing things to

Lauren:

support the rights of the children. You're always

Lauren:

going to be doing things because we know that

Lauren:

that's the way that children learn best. We don't

Lauren:

kind of go in and out of fads and change what we

Lauren:

do just because on a whim it's always Obviously

Lauren:

we're reflective and we do adapt but it's always

Lauren:

research fact.

Clare:

Love it, absolutely love it.

Laura:

And Laura, mine would be, I think, be the leader

Laura:

that you wish you could be led by. and really just

Laura:

think about how you would, what you want from

Laura:

somebody who is going to be leading you and, and

Laura:

looking after you. And I want my, I always want my

Laura:

staff team to feel that they can come to whenever

Laura:

they need me, that the door is always open, that

Laura:

there's a, there's no Judgement, they're safe to

Laura:

talk to me and I think it's just about being,

Laura:

being that person who they're not, they're not

Laura:

afraid of. I suppose. So yeah, being the leader

Laura:

that you would want, want to be led by.

Clare:

I feel so lucky to have you guys right beside me

Clare:

as we're leading this amazing atelier, team

Clare:

forward really. Because when you look at all of

Clare:

the things we've talked about today, whether it's

Clare:

the visionary aspect, whether it's the inspiration

Clare:

that we bring, the motivation, the genuine

Clare:

responses, the consistency, the unwavering

Clare:

approach, you know, there's so many words there

Clare:

that summarise what we do on a day to day basis at

Clare:

Atelier. And I think Lauren, it's exactly, you

Clare:

know, coming back to what you said, isn't it? What

Clare:

we want for our team is the same as what we want

Clare:

for our children. And actually enabling our ah,

Clare:

team to be competent and creative leaders in their

Clare:

own right, is so, so important and so powerful. So

Clare:

from all of us at Atelier, we hope that has

Clare:

brought you some leadership opportunities for

Clare:

reflection and inspiration. We look forward to

Clare:

sharing with you in the next episode how some of

Clare:

that's to practise on a day to day basis. But

Clare:

above all take time to know your team, take time

Clare:

to hear your team and take time for yourself to be

Clare:

able to build and hold your team. So from all of

Clare:

us at Atelier, thank you for joining us, thank you

Clare:

for listening and we look forward to seeing you in

Clare:

the next episode.

Lauren:

Bye bye.

Clare:

Thank you for joining us for Atelier Talks. If you

Clare:

enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe,

Clare:

share and leave us a review. It really helps us to

Clare:

reach more educators, parents and early years

Clare:

professionals just like you for more insights into

Clare:

our unique research led approach or to find out

Clare:

more about our services at both the nursery or the

Clare:

consultancy and how we can help you in your early

Clare:

years practise. Visit our website, follow us on

Clare:

social media. All the details you need to find us

Clare:

are in the show notes. In the meantime it's

Clare:

goodbye from us. Thank you for joining us. We look

Clare:

forward to seeing you next time for another

Clare:

episode of Atelier Talks.

Clare:

Thanks for listening.

Beth:

Sam.

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About the Podcast

Atelier Talks
A podcast for educators by educators. Exploring child-led learning. Unpacking the magic of outstanding Early Years practice at Atelier. Nursery.
Atelier Talks is a podcast for educators who want to deepen their understanding of outstanding Early Years education. Hosted by the expert team behind the award-winning Atelier Nursery, join Clare, Beth, Lauren and Laura to explore the magic of Atelier, unpacking their real-life Early Years practice rooted in Reggio Emilia, Froebelian principles, and child-led learning.

From free-flow and mixed-age provision to creating inspiring learning environments, each episode offers valuable insights to support child development, professional growth, and Early Years practice. Whether you're a nursery practitioner, manager, consultant, or parent curious about progressive Early Years approaches, you'll find inspiration and practical strategies to apply in your own setting.

Step inside a truly unique nursery with the most passionate team you'll ever meet - and discover how principles become practice, where children thrive and educators grow.

This is the podcast that puts principles into practice and brings research to life, to hit subscribe and come and discover the fine line between chaos and cosmos that defines the outstanding Early Years practice at Atelier Nursery.

Atelier Talks is a Decibelle Creative original podcast.